Felix Nikolas Prehn with Nomad Capitalist: Residence and Taxation

0:00I'm very excited for our guest today, Andrew Henderson. Some of you might know him better as The Nomad Capitalist, or perhaps the CEO of Nomad Capitalist. A man with more passports than most and perhaps pays less tax than most, for all good reasons I'm sure. And I'm thrilled to have you here Andrew because it's something that's fairly close to my heart. I have done the tour, I did Monaco, I looked at Caribbean, I live in Hong Kong most of the year, and I've been watching your content for quite some time so it's a real pleasure to have you on the show.

0:34Well thank you, and we were saying you were in the south of France. We just talked not so long ago about Tina Turner who gave up US citizenship before she passed away to become Swiss. But when she was talking to Larry King back in the day, where does she live? Yeah, home was Zurich, back when that was I think more tax friendly, that was the 90s. And she's like I can't spend too much time in the south of France, and I kind of wondered like is that the hey I got to make sure I don't get sucked into that French tax net. But anyway it's good to be with you and to talk about this.

1:06Absolutely, and I think it's a real thing right. I went at the end of Covid, we moved to London for a bit, and then once I realised that after 90 days there I'm going to get basically taxed in about 70% of my worldwide income, I thought okay we've got to run. So I kind of really understand where the tax planning comes in a lot more than before.

1:32And I guess I'd love to go back a step for people who are maybe not super familiar with you and your work and your expertise. If you meet somebody for the first time and they say Andrew what do you do, what do you say to them?

1:46I don't. I'm a little Larry David in that regard. We have a YouTube channel and we have about 2,600 videos and I tell them to go watch the YouTube channel. But if I had to give you one message, go where you're treated best, those are the 5 magic words, that's what I stand for. I'm pretty passionate about the idea of choice and we exercise choice in where we go to eat and where we go on a holiday and so many things of our life. We often don't exercise choice in terms of where we live, where we pay taxes, where we fall in love, we just think oh that was written to the stars and you can't rewrite the stars and I pushed back on that.

2:38Being born in the US, not so far from Canada, I mean in the grand scheme of things had you moved just a little bit you'd be Canadian. And it kind of shows to me that this nationality is the sort of accident of birth. We should all get to choose where not only where we're from and how we identify but where we want to live. And I think that go where you're treated best means you should have choices. It does not mean that the choice has to be paying zero tax. I will tell you, once you make a certain amount of money, there's no country on Earth in my opinion that's worth 50%.

3:13There's just so many, I mean we've helped clients move to 31 different tax friendly countries. I hear there's another one popping up in Europe that could be number 32. That's about 20%, almost the world's sovereign countries. You can find 1 in 5 that you like to avoid paying 50%, whether you want to pay zero, whether you want to pay 1, 2, 5, 10, whatever. Go where you're treated best is about choice and I think when you explain it that way a lot of people understand it.

3:43And I love that message because I think for me the whole thing is getting people out of their rat race and their jobs and everything like that and kind of helping people do that transition, because that's what I did in my life. But you are right, the thing that most people just take for granted is where they happen to be living, where they happen to be born, and therefore that's where they get a job and that's where they marry someone who's from there and that's where they pay tax. And I think it's something that most people never really thought of, particularly I find Americans, and I know you were born American. What do you say to an American who's brought up on the diet of it's the greatest country in the world and you say to them maybe it isn't and maybe you should give up your citizenship? Like how does that work in practical terms?

4:31Well I gave up US citizenship. I don't think the reason was taxation. I mean Americans who are entrepreneurs, it's harder if you're in crypto or if you're a trader, but if you're an entrepreneur you can move overseas and you can pay anywhere from zero to probably 10% by the time all is said and done. And if you want that optionality of always being able to be American because you want to go back at some point, because you like the passport, you like the country, or because you can't get an equal quality passport affordably, then by all means maybe it's worth 10%. I think it's pretty diabolical they get to be effectively the only country that taxes you for living somewhere else and kind of shame you, which is really for me the reason why I wanted to leave.

5:11But most of the clients don't give up citizenship, they just choose to go and live overseas, they get a second passport, they prepare for things to get worse. And so I think last month, record month, fewer than 20% of the clients were American. I think there was probably a time when 70% of them were, and so we're seeing a time when everyone realises they need a backup plan or an active plan to change. I don't know that you have to convince anyone, but if I was talking to someone in a pub I would say listen, it's the greatest marketing job in history.

5:46I don't have a can of Coca-Cola here, but I drink Coca-Cola or Coke Zero because I guess I'm like many people, I've been advertised to for almost 40 years of my life that that red, I see that like oh yeah that's refreshment. Why don't I drink RC Cola, why don't I drink many other things? Well they did one of the best marketing jobs in history and I think that's what the United States and probably most other legacy brand countries, I mean the US being the biggest marketing job but the UK to some extent, it's marketing.

6:18I was spending some time in places like Georgia the country back in, I don't know, during the pandemic I guess and right before that. And there was frustration living anywhere and I said okay let's have some kind of Western European base. And I looked at places like Italy where they've got a flat tax and I said I'm sure some people love Italy, but for me, knowing that I can live in Georgia, Italy is just Georgia with better marketing. For the things that matter to me I think the wine in Georgia is good, the food in Georgia is good. You're not going to hang out at the palazzo every day, you're not going to hang out at the duomo every day, you're going to live a normal life. And so the pace of how people do things, the government efficiency, all that, some of that's worse than Georgia. Why does Italy have so many more people going there? It's marketing.

7:08And I think what we're seeing is the veneer is starting to crack as people are having a harder and harder time making it in these countries. And people like me and many others are talking about the Malaysias for example. We're having our big event there again, every year we do it. People come to Malaysia and they say this is fantastic, it's better than some places in the US. So Malaysia had terrible marketing, still does pretty much.

7:30Yeah, it's a lovely place, amazing people and all that, but yeah it's got pretty bad marketing. I think so. I would say listen, how many places have you lived and what is it you're really looking for? And if you think that there's no other place in the world with California weather or California girls or whatever it is that you're looking for, there's something everywhere.

7:51But increasingly, perhaps as I've built a business that works with people from all over the world, or perhaps as I just get a little older and wiser and I want to change people's minds less, if you're the average middle class person, life in the legacy brand countries is getting tough. You should find a way to get a remote job, start a business online, live from wherever you want, cut your cost, cut your tax bill, that's how you will thrive. That's not the clientele I talk to. So if you just make $120 grand living in the US, maybe you should stay living in the US if you're required to live in the US to make that $120 grand. But if you want to make a lot of money and if you want freedom and if you want adventure and if you want to see the world develop in front of your eyes.

8:36Then why would you stay in a country where none of those things are possible? I very much agree and I like that you're saying you're not trying to convert people. You're waiting for them to let the penny drop and then come to you and ask you for advice. Once they have that issue of where do we go, I'm a very methodical person. I'm German by birth so I can't help the spreadsheet approach to life.

9:00When I thought about moving or at least having a second base, I literally made a spreadsheet with pretty much every country in the world. And my list was this: availability of staff, service staff, I value that a lot, tax, safety, can I own property, and then just general lifestyle like is there something within a vicinity. Is there something you would say I missed from that list? Is there something else that you look for when you assess countries?

9:30One of the things I've optimised for in recent years is kindness. I'm an intense person, I can be brusk at times, but I think that for me kindness is a value much more important than nice. By the way, I mean nice is fleeting, even politeness is fleeting, kindness matters. That's one thing I think Malaysia does very well. Places like Colombia I think to a certain extent do well there. Genuinely kind. Georgia, probably the easiest place I've lived to make friends.

9:58So that matters and people talk about what's going to happen when society falls apart and that's why they think the US is the place. I don't know that a bunch of people who've had it too good for too long are going to be the people to support you. Consumer conveniences on top of that. For me availability to travel, that's not that important to everybody, but I don't want to live in Costa Rica 5 hours from the nearest airport.

10:20Yeah. I went just to the Bahamas and I looked at, what is that place, there's a beautiful little island, it's got Paradise Beach there, that pink beach, that's where all the Americans go for like 100k weeks on yacht trips. And I thought it's amazing, I got there, but I thought this is a flight away from an airport that is 2 hours away from Miami and I was just like I don't think I can do that. It's just too remote. You're not going to be able to really enjoy the world if you are stuck somewhere like that.

10:52I realise, and this is why I don't try and convince people as much, I mean I try and tell people, hey, if you're from the US your passport is the 44th best. That's our own passport index but the actual facts. In some parts of the US the infant mortality rate is worse than Sudan. I mean, hey, I just look at all those kinds of statistics. If that doesn't convince you then maybe you don't want to be convinced.

11:19But I will say this, some people want to live in the pristine beach. I am more of a city person, I like the energy that comes from that. I'm not looking to retire. But there's something for everybody, that's my approach. I'm not one of these guys who sets up in Dubai and everybody needs a Dubai company and a Dubai residence. Somebody does, they're probably being misled because they do have tax now on companies in Dubai.

11:429%. Everybody's coming out, oh he's misleading. Yeah, it's 9%, just admit it guys. You have one country to offer people, I know you're angry that your 0% tax thing, you've got to trip over yourself trying to explain the 9% tax, but it's fine. I have 31, 32 countries that people can go to. So I think you have to come to an acceptance that everyone's a little bit different.

12:07You just want to have the availability of services. I think staff, increasingly yes, I'm with you on that one. There's a couple other things that I could add in there, but you don't want to be too isolated. I would also add you want something that's different from where you're from. One of the things that Americans, Brits, et cetera, ah yeah, I tried this thing, I moved to Canada or something.

12:38I know someone who's a friend, I've talked to this colleague of mine, her friend has lived in Vancouver, Dublin, London and now Amsterdam. I said they lived in the same place. There's no, it's the same place in the scope of the world, the same. And then eventually they say, oh, these places where there's no freedom. It's like yeah, because you didn't go somewhere different.

13:03That's something I said recently. I've got an African passport. I know Africa is not a country but it's a passport of an African country. Which one? In the Comoros. I don't, I can't say I use it very much, but it's like okay, keep that in your back pocket for the next 20 years, who knows what develops there.

13:20And if you, I look at 3 categories: finance, freedom and lifestyle. If you want the best lifestyle you're probably not moving to the Comoros or most places in Africa. But if you want freedom in the future, look at all the developments there in the last 10 years. I think it might be a place that you have freedom. And if you want finances, well maybe that's a place to invest, or Asia or something. And where do you go to reduce your taxes, but which ones are more important for you?

13:46I've never optimised for, when I was single I never optimised for the dating lifestyle. I went places that I wanted to go. Some guys do optimise for dating so Kuala Lumpur becomes Bangkok because it's far superior for dating. I didn't do that. So these are the kinds of things that you think about, and it's different based on whether you need to be dating or not or whether you need healthcare or not or what your priorities are.

14:10Let's make this a bit more practical. Let's say I'm an American, I've got a decent job that allows me to work remotely and I'm just thinking I want to take the baby steps of where do I go. Is there like a passport I should get first? Is there somewhere that I should go first? Is there a process for someone who's curious about how can I pay less tax, where do my dollars maybe go further and where can I get a bit more sunshine?

14:39You want to convince yourself and you want to build the foundation for making this long term. People talk about the difference between expats and immigrants and people get upset because they think oh, expat is for white people. Here's what expat is for me, it's impermanence. Yes, I agree.

14:58And I've been in Malaysia, it's been my longest base, and I see a lot of people come and go. You see the Danish family, they come for 3 years, they know they're going to go, and what happens? Oh, we're going to go back and get married and have a kid, we can't live here anymore, there's no kids in Malaysia, no schooling. Yeah, there's no schools. It's like, okay, by the way, if the objection is actually like, well, we want to be around our parents, maybe if your parents are retired maybe they should come here and live a lot better life. But okay, let's get to the real objection.

15:27But they never intended to integrate into society. They never plan to be citizens, they never plan to learn the language. Like, that's an expat. An immigrant is you're working toward citizenship. So you want, if you want to avoid that, because we've had clients that 3 years later they're like, this isn't for me. And it's usually the children of immigrants by the way, where they get shamed into, we worked so hard to come to this country and now you're leaving. You leave.

15:54Okay, but you want to convince yourself. Like, open a bank account somewhere, like in Georgia, like in Ecuador, like anywhere they, you can put in 100 bucks and go and just keep looking and see that the money is still there. Do stuff like that, right? Do small things that are like, oh my God, I have money here and I have money there and it's kind of the same and actually this one works kind of better. So do that.

16:15Okay, if you have an ancestor in your family tree, I'm not talking about the 1600s, I'm talking parent, grandparent, maybe great grandparent, maybe one more generation than that in a few countries, claim your citizenship by descent. Might take years but they're generally pretty good passports, often in Europe. We've also helped people who had like St Kitts and Nevis, we had a guy who was Panamanian, we had Mexican, we had one in South America, I forget which one. Claim passports from your ancestry. That could include your mother was born in Canada. If you're born in Canada you're Canadian so you can claim that generally.

16:53If not, I think everyone needs a second passport. There's ways to, it would be investment. If you're an entrepreneur there's ways to do it. Cyprus just.

16:59Opened a programme. If you are that kind of talented professional they're going to fast track you in 3 years. So there's all kinds of opportunities. I think bank account, citizenship, a residence permit. If you're American I like something like Mexico, it's easy to get to or even right next door. Most Latin American residence permits are based on just having income, so you don't really have to invest much, a couple thousand a month or something.

17:26Some of those South American countries it goes down to like $900. Plus for dependents. So yeah I think the highest might be $4,000 a month. So what would be the advantage? That you can go there and you can spend some time there, your dollars will go further. Are you saving tax? Not really, right, because you're still an American citizen at that point.

17:47State taxes. We're talking to Americans. Well you're right, I mean state tax, if let's say you live in a state with state tax, I mean I'm not giving tax advice here, but perhaps you might want to move to a state without state tax, get set in there just for the basic requirements and then leave. Because a state like California is still going to be difficult even if you go overseas. There's about 4 or 5 of them, they're kind of nasty, of course California is one.

18:11What you're doing is if you're not willing to take the plunge right away, you're not going to save tax. So for most people, as you mentioned, depending on your ties the UK, maybe you've got to be gone 8, 9, 10 months a year. Other Western countries, 6 months in the country you're certainly screwed. Yes, but it's not like 6 months out and you're not screwed, so it's probably you're looking at being gone 8, 9, 10 months a year. If you're an American there's a bit more flexibility where if you're gone like 11 months a year give or take it's even easier. So there's ways from 9 to like 11 months for Americans, but that's the amount of time that you're planning to spend out.

18:47Everything else that you're doing that's less than that is, I want again the lifestyle. Hey, go and enjoy, more affordable, more this, more that, more whatever somewhere else. Spend your summers, spend your winters. You're diversifying your assets, you're protecting some assets, you don't have all your eggs in one basket anymore, and you're preparing for something bad happening.

19:09It could be a pandemic, it could be a big tax hike, it could be whatever. The person who has the home, the residence permit, the passport somewhere else, when the taxes go up, the pandemic locks things down, whatever, is going to be more prepared and more comfortable to leave. People say I'll leave when things get bad enough. Well not if you don't know what you're going to do. You're just going to keep sitting around and saying well that's not quite bad enough.

19:33Things have been getting pretty darn bad this century in the Western world. They're spying on you, you've known that for over a decade. How much more do you have to know? So if things got bad enough you would have been gone by now. So having these things set up makes it easier to leave when something bad happens, when you want more, or you'll realise there's more freedom, or you'll realise the girls are nicer or whatever.

19:59And once you're comfortable spending those 9, 10, 11 months out of the country you already know what your plan is and it's been vetted, and then you can lower your taxes dramatically. If you're an American maybe substantially, if you're anyone else to zero.

20:15Sure, sure. Okay so what's the, I imagine another objection is, and I'm treating you as an objection killer here. For me one thing was the big big deal was pets. So I've got a golden retriever, I've got 3 cats. Travelling with pets was significantly harder during the pandemic than it normally was and it ruled out for example places like Miami I would have gone to because they just had idiotic systems. Children I imagine would be the other one, I haven't got any yet. Is that something you guys help with? When people say hey I want to spend 9 months in Colombia, I mean presumably they have good international schools in Colombia, but is that something that's a solvable thing, is that a big criteria for people?

21:00Well Colombia is a place that has a non-Western tax system where it largely is a days test. So if you're there for those 6 months you will be taxed. The tax rates are not the best, they're some of the lowest among the OECD countries, but they're not the best globally. So if you, I have a home in Colombia, I was just there a couple months ago, that's a place you want to keep under 6 months generally to not get into their system. If nothing else just to avoid the paperwork. I mean I'm not opposed to paying something reasonable but just the paperwork is busting. So yeah I've been doing this for a long time.

21:35I started researching this global citizenship stuff back in like '06 with a focus on frontier markets. I thought that was the future, Cambodia was one of the big ones I was interested and still am. And I've taken the slings and arrows myself of doing this. I am still going through and closing bank accounts and moving some stocks over and I move really quickly and I adjust as I go. And so I think that my approach and our company's approach is a human approach, a holistic approach.

22:02If you have kids, okay what's going to serve your kids? I mean it may not be Cambodia, it may not be Colombia, but I believe you can. And Joshua Sheets who's speaking at our event Nomad Capitalist Live, he has a podcast, he has 5 kids, they homeschool them and they follow my Trifecta method. He basically spends 4 months a year in 3 different countries. And I saw him in Colombia a couple months ago, I think the guy's staying in a bloody hotel. I think he gets a couple hotel rooms for the family.

22:32So you could do anything from that, you could rent a mansion, you could buy homes in 3 countries and that could get you the residence permit or citizenship and some of them, to allow you to live there that amount of time, to put you on a track to citizenship. I mean so many things overlap. But yeah kids to me are doable. Now homeschooling is maybe the easier way if you're bouncing around, but yes you could spend 9 months in a place, put your kids in international school, and then go and live somewhere else in the summer. I mean there's so many different permutations we talk to people about that.

23:05Yes and on pets, for me the pets, I go and get, especially in Malaysia, I'll just find a cat that has a problem and I'll take the cat in and I'm there for 3 or 4 months. I get the cat cleaned up, I find the cat a home. I've probably done that a dozen or 15 times and that serves my nomad pet needs where I have the cat for a while when it's nice and small and cute and then I find someone. I just actually got a video the other day of some Malaysian family propagandising my old cat with the prime minister's speech. They're listening, the cat's on the stove listening to the prime minister. And here's the cat a year later.

23:42Yeah I mean there are places that are pet friendly. I think certainly flying private makes it a little bit easier if you have larger breeds. But yeah I think we have a backend system, we track all this. I don't know the top of my head what those places are but I certainly know people do it. By the way, what somebody said they did for pets was they do my Trifecta system, 4 months in each place, it's lifestyle friendly for adventure and for low tax, but they do it in one region. So they were like Mexico, Colombia and I forget where else. So it's a shorter distance. So if you speak Spanish that could work.

24:18Rather than me, like Malaysia, Colombia, Eastern Europe, Western Europe. I mean it gets to be the long distance is a bit of a harder thing and even with private you still got to stop somewhere typically and it's kind of, yeah it makes the thing a little bit less fun. I think it's a little bit, so what we do now, we leave the pets in Hong Kong when we travel and they're looked after by the people they know and love and then we know we're a bit more free when we roam around.

24:44But you mentioned your Trifecta. To your point real quick, we recently were looking at a model where you have a house manager for someone who wants that 9 months in one place. Get a house manager and perhaps while you're gone, and some people can't handle this maybe, but have the house manager stay, do all the dirty work while you're gone, the chimney sweeping and the roof repairs and all that, and they can watch the pets. I know people maybe like to not be 3 months away from their pets but that was something that also came up recently.

25:15Sure, sure, sure. And that's basically what we've got. We've got lovely housekeepers who live with us and they look after them, which is probably much better.

25:25Than putting them through boxes and airports and all that kind of stuff, which pets don't usually. My dog gets off the plane and he's like, where the heck are we? He's just confused because it doesn't really make sense to them, right? It's kind of hard to explain. But you mentioned your trifecta system a couple of times. I'd love to touch upon that a little bit. What does that look like and how does somebody start to implement that? What are the things that they should look at, what should they be thinking about in terms of criteria?

25:57Can you repeat the question because it keeps coming out, I'm not sure if it's you or me.

26:02Sure. Your trifecta system, how does somebody start to implement that? What does that look like? What are the kind of criteria they need to be aware of to make those decisions?

26:15Yeah, so trifecta, and by the way there's different versions. I'm not as, I appreciate the dramatic nature, I use dramatic approaches to renovations and things like that, but when it comes to where I want to live I find it very hard to find 3 places that I want to spend exactly the same amount of time. So I created the modified trifecta where maybe you want to spend 6 months in a place that's tax friendly in order to be a tax resident and then keep yourself out of other tax nets, or you just like the lifestyle. But let's just call it a perfect trifecta, 3 places, 4 months each. Could be in the same region, could be all over the world. You want to find 3 places that you like.

26:52Can you swap them out over time? Sure, and to me that's the beauty of it, is you're going all in but one third the commitment. And if you want to raise the commitment to one in the future you can, but it's reducing that desire to want to go home. Because you're in Kuala Lumpur, you spent, that's my example, you spend 4 months there and maybe something irritates you about it, maybe the weather's too hot, maybe whatever. Well after 4 months you're on to the next place and so every time you come back it's like it's a beautiful thing and you enjoy the best parts of it.

27:21I go to Bogota for 2 weeks, I love watching people on their bikes, they're cycling, people are dancing in the streets, they're shaking their behinds. You have the amazing coffee culture there, just a great vibe, I have friends there. After a while it's like, okay, I'm not fluent in Spanish, I feel a little detached. I enjoy it for what it is, I do some business, I meet other people in that region, I move on.

27:46So you want to find 3 places. Maybe it's best to start with one place and then build from there. What I did for many years, well what I did the beginning, let's say I found the place I like the most because my focus was Asia. I said I could live in Hong Kong, I don't see the need to spend the money, I don't need to have a job in Hong Kong. So I said, all right, 12 years ago I'll be cheap, I'll go to Kuala Lumpur, I like that as equally as much. And then I just rented a place full time, eventually bought a place. And I would travel from there and so it was kind of like a 5, 6 month base but I was constantly looking for the other places.

28:23And as I connected with where do I feel good I added places to the list. But you have to be open minded that it may not be the places that you think. It's probably not the Bahamas, Italy and what's something else people like. It may be places that are off the wall. I got off the taxi in Bangkok and just from the first minute of the full month I was in Thailand I just felt like, ah yeah.

28:44I have the same feeling about Bangkok, love it. Couple of days I'm happy, see some friends, but I don't really want to spend a lot of time there. I don't know what that is. They have great dining, they have some top.

28:58It's a personal thing, right? It's a personal decision.

29:02Yeah, right. So I can't tell you where to go. Our event, Nomad Capitalist Live, is in Kuala Lumpur again because I want people to come. Maybe somebody will leave and say, hey, I'm glad I came, beautiful hotel, great event, the city is not for me. But at least it's functional and if nothing else at least you will see, oh my goodness, the roads are amazing, better than in many parts of the US. All right, maybe you don't like it but at least you'll take something away from that.

29:30Yeah, Malaysia is a lovely place. I've been going there for, I don't know, 15, 20 years. Amazing people, super friendly, amazing food. If you love the tropical vibe it's brilliant. I think KL is a nice city. I wouldn't say it's quite Hong Kong but it's a lovely city, very very liveable.

29:49I lived in the US when I was an adult for about a decade, in a city, Phoenix, Arizona, and that's like a nice place to live. Anytime someone said they're visiting Phoenix, why? What's there to do? And I think I've probably chosen cities like that over the years where, yeah, if you're going to visit KL 3, 4, 5 days depending on pace, move on, there's other things to see. But if you want a place just to be and to get things done and to get work done and to be able to speak English, it's a great place to hang out.

30:24It's incredibly affordable, which isn't maybe the only criteria that should matter, but you have to kind of marvel at getting a giant bowl of delicious food for 2 bucks. I never get tired of that. No matter what, even if I'm having caviar for dinner I love having the $2 lunch.

30:42And the food's incredible. People who haven't experienced it, go guys, go and have some amazing food in KL and see the islands and see Singapore and maybe Indonesia or whatever alongside.

30:54So a lot of this seems to be about lifestyle and experiences rather than just pure tax planning. I think that's kind of, I think maybe the perception, people just look at, oh, save money in terms of tax. But it seems from what you're saying more about actually how do I enjoy my life, how do I get to see the world.

31:13Yeah, people say, oh, this is more of the freedom piece, if you're always going to be running from something you'll never survive. Very American thing to say. There's always somewhere coming up. Again the UK just ended its non-dom tax programme. And now we see another country in Europe, it's going to be popping up with a new lump sum tax. When one door closes one opens. You may not like the new one opening but there will always be opportunities.

31:39And in the same way I say to myself, I'm not running from something, I'm running to something. I wanted to see the world evolving. I think the US is heading in the wrong direction, momentum is going in the wrong direction. I think socially you're headed towards some kind of muted civil war. There's just a lot of problems in the legacy brand countries. And I said let me go see what's developing, let me go see where people's wages are rising rather than being stagnant or falling, let me go see where people are optimistic. I want to see that with my very own eyes.

32:14Sure, it didn't hurt that as a young entrepreneur in the west, back before entrepreneurship was cool, a lot more German and Chinese girls were interested in entrepreneurs at 25 years old than there were in the US, and that didn't hurt.

32:29But yeah, I think it's about adventure, I think it's about lifestyle, I think it's about saying there must be something even cooler than this out there. And guess what, if there's not, give it 3 years. We're all going to live to like 100 at least. My grandmother just turned 90, my grandmother's turning 95, she's born in 1929. If she'll live to 100 we can all live to 100.

32:53I agree with you. And that's 3% of your life, do it, save some taxes. I think 3 years is kind of the minimum in a lot of countries to save taxes and go back. Yes, the taxes are nice because you'll find you think you're paying for everything to work well and then you go to plenty of places where there's no tax or 1% tax and they work just as well and you say, I've been scammed. And that's the point.

33:26It does come through in the end. But no, I completely agree with you. And I think if we can encourage people who are watching this to do the one little easy step that you mentioned at the beginning, go somewhere that is in your country, open a bank account, go there for a couple of weeks a year or something and just get your feet wet and start to see the world and start to see that there's a world.

33:49Outside the box that you were born into and the mindset limitations that we have, I think it's fantastic. And along the way make some money and figure out how to save some taxes, which means it's twice as wonderful. I really love that, I really like your input there. If I can leave you with two quick questions, one I'd love to see is there one place that you say is on the rise, and two tell us about your event in November, what's going on there in KL?

34:24Well I think a lot of places are on the rise and some places are on the rise for some period of time and you take your profits, whether that's literally in terms of you invest there and you cash out, or figuratively in terms of you live there for 10 years or you have a second home or whatever, and then it no longer works for you and you move on. I think that's the big lesson. People say, well, where are you going to go if the next place doesn't work out? And one of the speakers at our event, his parents moved from Sri Lanka to Australia and he moved from Australia to Dubai, so each generation goes to the next great place. And I think there's something to that. If we're going to romanticise ancestors, at least where I'm from in the US, and they did the right thing by moving to the US, well maybe each generation does the right thing by moving somewhere else.

35:09For me, if you had children and each of them lived in different places because they each went to what was the best place for them, maybe one's going to be in AI, there's going to be a place that's going to say we want to be the capital of AI, there's going to be a place that's going to want where we want to be the capital of crypto. You're going to see many more niche players. There's not going to be one Singapore or one South Korea.

35:28So for crypto it could be Bermuda, it could be Malta, it could be any number of places. What I know is it won't be the United States because they're threatened and they keep pushing back on it. And look at how many people they're charging with crimes relating to crypto and AML and all that. Some of them I'm sure are guilty and ran scams and did bad things and I don't support that. I'm guessing some of them just didn't collect enough information on their customers and it upsets the US government, so that's not going to be a place to go.

35:58I think from a lifestyle perspective a place like Malaysia is fantastic. I think from an investment perspective a place like Cambodia remains on my radar. Nepal is coming up, Bangladesh is coming up. I follow the global citizen sandwich. Assets are on the top part of the sandwich, if you're in Asia that's Singapore. I think Singapore is the best transactional banking hub in the world, better than Switzerland. So Singapore is the top part, that's where you store all your wealth. The bottom part of the sandwich is where you invest the wealth in places that are up and coming like Bangladesh or a Cambodia.

36:30I think Asia is probably as good a place as any for opportunity and then you live somewhere in the middle. Doesn't have to be in Asia, if it is I think Malaysia is right in the middle, maybe Bangkok. If it's somewhere else, okay, what's in the middle, there's a number of places. So I want you to have that diversification to where you're not having all your eggs in one basket. I own property in Malaysia, I do not think it will go up in value in the next 5 years. I own it so I've control over my space, I have an aesthetic environment I can work in and I feel totally comfortable, I can go there whenever I want, it's waiting for me.

37:05I do not buy as a financial investment. Over time I think it'll do fine. I don't plan on selling it ever, so what do I care if it goes up a little bit? Some most other properties I do have, but diversify your finances, your freedom and your lifestyle and look at the global citizen sandwich to where each place does different things for you.

37:27Now the event is in Kuala Lumpur because I didn't want to be, not only can I not go, I would have to ask for a visa if I wanted to go back to the United States. I don't want to do that and so some of my employees would too and they probably also wouldn't get one. I don't want to have an event that teaches people how to do this stuff in Orlando or Austin. I just think people should come out and experience it. So it's a 4-day event, we've got the CEO of AirAsia which is the biggest airline in Asia. You've been there, they've revolutionised travel, it's the Ryanair of Asia but it's a good airline actually. He's speaking.

38:03Nigel Farage, who whether you like Brexit or not, he was unbanked. I do actually. And that speaks volumes about what they're doing to you in the West, in Canada and the UK. They don't like it, they shut you down, crazy. We've got emerging markets experts, we've got our own team talking about the latest tax incentives. This stuff changes every month, passports, tax incentives. We have people coming to talk about investing in Southeast Asia. I mean just go to nomadcapitalist.com, we sold out the general admission tickets for 2024. We have a few VIP spots but it's basically a lot of commentators on where the world's going economically, both from a western and eastern perspective. Where can you go and be free, where can you go and invest your money, where can you go and protect your money, with some big names in there.

38:52Bitcoin as well is going to be covered, but it's an event, it's not a conference, it's not a trade show, there's no sponsors. It's a premium ticket because there's no sponsors and we just overload your mind for 4 days with some great Malaysian food, drinks, cocktail parties. We've got a nightclub this year for the first time ever at the event. It's an event where you meet amazing people from 35 different countries.

39:18You talk to people about Venezuela. There's a place that I think has some potential. We have 2 people who work for us in Venezuela, interesting, and they're successful people. They go to the US, they go to Europe, they travel all over the world, but they can buy stuff in their country, it's incredibly cheap right now. What's the story? Don't watch CNN or the BBC, come and talk to them while you're mingling during lunch and hear what's the opportunity to buy an apartment for 10 grand. That's the kind of stuff you get. What's the risk there, and meet some people, help facilitate that in some way and stuff.

39:48Okay that's very cool, that sounds very interesting, absolutely. So Andrew it's been an absolute pleasure to get a bit of insight into your mind and into your knowledge. I appreciate you sharing it and I think really, I'm always all about getting people towards the financial freedom goal but also life freedom, and this really takes it to the next level, which is actually the world's your oyster. And that's how I live my life, I spend it between usually Hong Kong and south of France, here in London where I have friends and enjoy being here, but would I want to be here all the time, no.

40:22And it gives you that, as you say, you meet people, you get different impressions, and it'll probably change. I might not be in this spot in 10 years, right, but for the moment I'm here for a little while each year and every time I come I'm excited, then every time I leave I'm excited to go to the next place. And I think we seem to be sharing that way of living life. And it's, I like what you said, people always say I'm running away from things and you're not. It's not really about running away from tax, it's just getting that set up in a way that's advantageous to you because you can take advantage of it, and if you don't it's a real missed opportunity, right?

41:00That's actually, why do people go to work, right? Not because they love it usually but because they need to make some money, so they're making their life 2 or 3 times as hard. Yeah, but most people don't, most people have a job, they drive to it and they sit in traffic and they sit in a cubicle, right. I mean okay, this isn't exactly work, right, we got to have a nice interesting chat about some fun stuff, so this is a bit different to what the 99% experience.

41:24I was watching a basketball player talk about how he doesn't leave his house if he's not in a good mood because if people come up to him he wants to be in a good mood. I'd say people come up to me, I'm in a good mood 97% of the time. When they corner you, I don't know if this has happened to you, when they corner you in a stairwell, not so much in a good mood. But a lot of people are commenting, oh yeah, that's what famous people should do. And I'm not saying that I'm as famous as this basketball player by any means, but that's what it should be like, that's your obligation to society. If you're famous, some people didn't choose to be famous, something happened.

42:03Got the spotlight, and so that kind of showed me just how out of touch the average person is from people who've chosen to be successful, who are self-made people. In the same way, if you make $80,000, I think life in the US has gotten worse and it will continue to get worse. Again, if you can make that $80,000 and your company will let you live anywhere else in the world, you cut the tax bill potentially, you cut the cost of living, that's going to be the difference. Taxes, what are they at their own level, the taxes are what makes places unaffordable. If you cut the taxes out it'd be delightful, but still maybe 80 grand, you're in the bracket where you should keep your US citizenship. Maybe you want to stay there, it's a good place to get a job, I think it's all changing but still.

42:48But also understand, if you make $10 million a year, suddenly the guy who makes 80 grand and pays 10 grand in taxes and probably says he pays his taxes, you're not paying $5 million. And if you were paying $5 million you'd probably be like, this is a hell of a lot more than I should be paying. Which is why a non-dom system like what the UK just abolished makes so much sense. Pay taxes on the money that you live on. If you make $10 million in Ireland as a non-dom, or Malta or Cyprus, but you only bring in $300,000 to live on, you pay the ridiculous tax rate on $300,000. That sounds like a lot more fair system than you just work productive and going to penalise you.

43:29To your point, people have a lot of opinions about something they've never experienced. I guarantee if you put that guy in a situation to make $10 million and he's paying $5 million taxes, he's going to start complaining. But it's easy to be making 80 grand and make fun of the guy that he can't imagine.

43:45Completely, and it becomes a reality, right. You look at your tax bill and Hong Kong's got a 16% tax, is relatively fair you might think, but when you get your tax bill you're still thinking, okay, it has a fair few zeros on it, right. So it's something I want to do something about. I think unless you've walked in the shoes you can't really judge it.

44:07And again, lump sum systems, I mean the Italy €100,000, the Greece €100,000, the new one coming on, €50,000. I'm happy to live in any country and say I pay more in taxes than the average person, I think it's fair. Now that might be 1% tax rate for me on my global income because they don't include my foreign corporation, they don't do this, whatever. I'm not opposed to that.

44:32And so if Italy says, hey, come in for 15 years, give us €100,000 and we don't care what you do, make as much as you want or as little as you want, hey, I would not move to Italy and pay their regular taxes, so they're getting zero from me right now. But if it's like, okay, I like Italy, €100,000, that's the price for the services that you get, and you don't get as many services as a citizen, so you're paying more than most people to get less. And yet people still have complaints about that. That to me is all about jealousy.

45:03If you want to argue against not paying zero, again, if you live in Malaysia you might pay zero if it's offshore. But if you make $10 million and you go to pay your €100,000, that to me is a jealousy issue if someone has a complaint, because how many Italians pay €100,000? Not many. How many Greeks €50,000? Almost none.

45:25Yeah, I mean honestly, and people don't realise this, how many people in Greece even pay their taxes? You're starting to get in some of those Southern European countries where it's kind of like Eastern Europe mentality of like they know their government's wasting the money, they're playing the games. That's not what you and I do, we have the fear of God put into us by our countries, and I think that's fine. But yeah, pay €100,000, make as much as you want, pay 1%, 2%, enjoy yourself.

45:55Again, it's all competition.

45:58It is, and that's somehow this is the competition you're not supposed to like.

46:01Yeah, well you can see why governments don't like it. The inefficient ones and the inept ones particularly.

46:08But yeah, I think the message here is make the world your oyster. You can make choices beyond the choices that most people are making right now. And I think if you are looking to do that, obviously reach out to Andrew and his team. Yeah, run through some of the easy baby steps, I think that will change people's lives. If people do that, just go somewhere, open a bank account, spend a couple of weeks, a couple of months there and just see how you like it, right. And you go to the next place and you move on and you just find something that suits you and your preferences.

46:41Brilliant, Andrew, I'd really appreciate your time. I love what you're doing, keep putting out all that information on YouTube, I think people get a tremendous amount of value from that. I'd be lovely to see you sometime in KL, I'll be over there I'm sure sometime this year, and speak soon.